News and Opinions

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Nanker said:

But we first landed men on the moon when Nixon was President. 

 

We did.  And did it in spite of him, not because of him.  There was NO WAY he was going to be able to kill that program 8 months into his presidency.

[IDBillzFan]

1 hour ago, RochesterRob said:

  The NASA of today is nothing like the NASA of those who grew up during the 1960's and 1970's knew.  It had the support of everybody including the President of the United States on down.  Democrat or Republican.  

 

I'm told they have a great Muslim outreach these days, which I believe was one of their priorities when Obama was elected, so we have that going for us.

 

Which is nice.

[IDBillzFan]

56 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

If you're innocent, why do you have to run, Andrew? 

 

 

 

Hey! No fair using leftist counterpoints against lefists!

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

 

"Old" NASA was willing to put up with risks to life and limb.  Today's NASA has no stomach for it.  

At least today's NASA is starting to use the private marketplace to supply rockets and space-related equipment at something that's starting to approach competitive prices and efficiency (a/k/a *not* Boeing).

 

I'd also say that the new Cold War Style Moon race should be a motivating factor for NASA to get back to its "old" ways.

 

 

 

  Minimizing outside contractors I would guess was a security measure during the Golden Age of NASA.  Lots of technology then was proprietary to the US government.  Today the more basic technology is widely known among the probable players in the current space race.  Quality control is probably the biggest concern when the US buys anything.  Hopefully.  

[snafu]

Just now, RochesterRob said:

  Minimizing outside contractors I would guess was a security measure during the Golden Age of NASA.  Lots of technology then was proprietary to the US government.  Today the more basic technology is widely known among the probable players in the current space race.  Quality control is probably the biggest concern when the US buys anything.  Hopefully.  

 

This leads me to my persistent question:  we put men on the moon 55 years ago -- using slide rulers and pencils.  What's the hold-up now?  Did they burn all the records?

 

 

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, snafu said:

 

This leads me to my persistent question:  we put men on the moon 55 years ago -- using slide rulers and pencils.  What's the hold-up now?  Did they burn all the records?

 

 

  Cost via inflation and a lack of willingness to spend on such programs.  I would hate to guess at the cost of going to Mars these days.

[RochesterRob]

33 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

We did.  And did it in spite of him, not because of him.  There was NO WAY he was going to be able to kill that program 8 months into his presidency.

  Lack of enthusiasm and even open dislike would not be enough in my mind for Nixon to push the Apollo program aside.  That was one of the very few news items to keep the Vietnam War from being the top headline or lead story on Huntley-Brinkley (who were not strong in their support of the Apollo program).

[Taro T]

Just now, RochesterRob said:

  Lack of enthusiasm and even open dislike would not be enough in my mind for Nixon to push the Apollo program aside.  That was one of the very few news items to keep the Vietnam War from being the top headline or lead story on Huntley-Brinkley (who were not strong in their support of the Apollo program).

 

Exactly.  Nixon had to live with the program, and he did - for a while.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  Minimizing outside contractors I would guess was a security measure during the Golden Age of NASA.  Lots of technology then was proprietary to the US government.  Today the more basic technology is widely known among the probable players in the current space race.  Quality control is probably the biggest concern when the US buys anything.  Hopefully.  

 

Apollo was all done by outside contractors.  General Dynamics, North American, Bell, Boeing, Douglas, Rocketdyne, IBM.

 

It was very much a jobs program and economic program to benefit state economies.  It worked because at the time, NASA was run by engineers, not lawyers.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

11 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

This leads me to my persistent question:  we put men on the moon 55 years ago -- using slide rulers and pencils.  What's the hold-up now?  Did they burn all the records?

 

 

 

They did.  They destroyed all the blueprints of the Saturn rocket and Apollo program so Congress had no alternative but to fun the Shuttle program.

 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

Soviet version was a glorified glider too.

 

Shuttle ended up what it was because the USAF demanded the capability to refuel recon satellites in orbit, and return them to earth if necessary.  That changed the design from "Apollo capsule with wings" to the big-ass cargo glider it ended up being. 

 

Which made it so complex it couldn't meet the "weekly launch" program requirement.  And which meant that, while the the Shuttle could put 25 tons into LEO, the entire launch stack was putting 100 tons into LEO (shuttle + payload), 75 tons of which were dedicated to returning empty cargo space to earth.

 

I love the Space Shuttle...but it was a horrible program, thanks to the Chair Force.  Would have been better (i.e. cheaper) to use the launch stack to put 90 tons into orbit at a time, and launch a "winged Apollo capsule" on a man-rated Atlas as needed.  More payload to orbit, cheaper, with less risk to manned missions.

 

But IIRC, that was kind of a result of Nixon's (and Reagan's and likely Carter's too, but don't recall exactly where he stood on the space program so won't include him in this) policies which directed a not insignificant portion of what was ostensibly NASA's civilian program budgets into military expenditures.  

 

Nixon couldn't kill NASA, but he sure could direct it away from what it was under Kennedy and Johnson.

[RochesterRob]

4 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

Apollo was all done by outside contractors.  General Dynamics, North American, Bell, Boeing, Douglas, Rocketdyne, IBM.

 

It was very much a jobs program and economic program to benefit state economies.  It worked because at the time, NASA was run by engineers, not lawyers.

   With a great deal of oversight and contribution of government resources from what I am told.  A high degree of coordination with the US government.  Parts were made in Rochester, NY but very little knowledge of the overall program was known in most companies.  Big fall off from what quite a number of government employees knew at Cape Canaveral.  

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

They did.  They destroyed all the blueprints of the Saturn rocket and Apollo program so Congress had no alternative but to fun the Shuttle program.

 

 

Yup.  Pretty sure the tooling to make the rocket was destroyed too.  (Maybe it was just lost through the years.)

 

Is the only remaining Saturn V (non-working almost definitely) the one sitting on the ground at NASA's Clear Lake (Houston) facility?

 

Another fun fact, when Enterprise was getting toured around the country just about the time the 1st functioning Shuttle was launched, it did a pass by Buffalo because Calspan did a lot of the engineering on the program.  (Could tell some cool stories about that, but this (the internet) probably isn't the best forum for them.)

[snafu]

19 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

Apollo was all done by outside contractors.  General Dynamics, North American, Bell, Boeing, Douglas, Rocketdyne, IBM.

 

It was very much a jobs program and economic program to benefit state economies.  It worked because at the time, NASA was run by engineers, not lawyers.

 

 

I think the difference today is that NASA doesn't oversee and approve all aspects of the work -- at least not as much in years past.  And I think they changed their contracts to emphasize efficiency and reduce time delays.  Overruns are now eaten by the provider.

 

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, snafu said:

 

 

I think the difference today is that NASA doesn't oversee and approve all aspects of the work -- at least not as much in years past.  And I think they changed their contracts to emphasize efficiency and reduce time delays.  Overruns are now eaten by the provider.

 

  Most technology to put a payload in orbit is no longer secretive today.  Now the payload itself depending on what it is would be an entirely different question.  

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

19 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Yup.  Pretty sure the tooling to make the rocket was destroyed too.  (Maybe it was just lost through the years.)

 

Is the only remaining Saturn V (non-working almost definitely) the one sitting on the ground at NASA's Clear Lake (Houston) facility?

 

Another fun fact, when Enterprise was getting toured around the country just about the time the 1st functioning Shuttle was launched, it did a pass by Buffalo because Calspan did a lot of the engineering on the program.  (Could tell some cool stories about that, but this (the internet) probably isn't the best forum for them.)

 

I was in sixth grade, and remember seeing it fly in.

 

I think my grandmother worked at Calspan, too.  I know she worked at Sierra.  She may have worked on the shuttle program...but she was cleared so high, she could never tell us what she did.  (When I got my TS, I called her and said "I'm cleared now, you can tell me what you did."  She said "You're still not cleared high enough.")

 

I know she worked on the moon program, though.  Don't know what part.

 

[Deranged Rhino]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

 

This leads me to my persistent question:  we put men on the moon 55 years ago -- using slide rulers and pencils.  What's the hold-up now?  Did they burn all the records?

 

 

They were told by something not to come back... 

 

 

1 hour ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

Apollo was all done by outside contractors.  General Dynamics, North American, Bell, Boeing, Douglas, Rocketdyne, IBM.

 

It was very much a jobs program and economic program to benefit state economies.  It worked because at the time, NASA was run by engineers, not lawyers.

 

Well, and Nazis who knew how to "motivate" a workforce.

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

17 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

They were told by something not to come back... 

 

 

 

What REALLY happened to Uncle Bosie.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

14 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

What REALLY happened to Uncle Bosie.

 

His last words were "It's a cookbook!"

[Deranged Rhino]